|Posted by Moderator on May 26, 2013 at 3:20 PM|
[Here is the cross examination of Gen Dallaire by Me MacDonald, Gen Bizimungu'scounsel, on Thursday, 23 November 2006. One of the disadvantages of postingthese transcripts out of chronological order (in the order which I recieve themfrom Me Black) is that unless you already have a pretty good idea of whathappened in Rwanda between 1990 and 1994, and the role this witness had in it,then this testimony might be a little difficult to follow. To this is added theping-pong of English and French versions of the transcripts--MacDonald oftenmentions he is changing from one language to the other--and as is true with alltranslation, it is impossible to go back and forth from language to languageand hope to maintain a distinct, logical through-line to your examination.Coherence in questioning and responding through out this process is loose atbest. But this witness, Roméo Dallaire, is such an important player in thecreation and maintenance of the False History of the destruction of the RwandanRevolution, that his testimony--and not just here in Military II--is absolutelyessential. You also might want to refer to other articles posted @ CM/P to gainbackground. For example: the two essays on Hotel Rwanda (or Hot'L Rwanda), andMe Black's pieces on the Fabrication of the Dallaire fax and the murder ofAgate and the Belgian commandos, among several others. But now it's off toredacting other transcripts from other days in other languages. Plenty more tocome.--mc]
THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR RWANDA
CASE NO.: ICTR-00-56-T THE PROSECUTOR
CHAMBER II OF THE TRIBUNAL
THURSDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 2006
Before the Judges:
Joseph Asoka de Silva, Presiding
Seon Ki Park
For the Registry:
Mr. Roger Noël Kouambo (Canada)
Mr. Issa Toure
Mr. Abraham Koshopa
For the Prosecution:
Mr. Ciré Aly Bâ
Mr. Segun Jegede
Mr. Moussa Sefon
Mr. Abubacarr Tambadou (Canada)
Ms. Felicitas Mushi
For the Accused Augustin Ndindiliyimana:
Mr. Christopher Black
For the Accused François-Xavier Nzuwonemeye:
Mr. Charles Taku
Mr. Hamuli Rety
For the Accused Innocent Sagahutu:
Mr. Fabien Segatwa
Mr. Seydou Doumbia
For the Accused Augustin Bizimungu:
Mr. Ronald MacDonald
Ms. Eleanor Bastian
Ms. Kirstin McLean
Ms. Leslie Todd
Ms. Sithembiso Moyo
For the Prosecution:
Cross-Examination by Mr. Taku (continued) 6
Cross-Examination by Mr. Segatwa (continued) 11
Cross-Examination by Mr. MacDonald 26
Exhibit No. D. 149 [Nzuwonemeye] 9
Exhibit No. D. 150 [Nzuwonemeye] 10
Exhibit No. D. 151 [Nzuwonemeye] 10
Exhibit No. D. 152 [Nzuwonemeye] 11
Exhibit No. D. 153 [Nzuwonemeye] 60
P R O C E E D I N G S
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
The Court is in session.
Where is Mr. Black? I don't see him.
I have not seen him today, Your Honour. I know he was very sick yesterday.According to the information I got, he went to the doctor's office, yesterday.And I think Mr. Segatwa saw him this morning. So -- but I am not sure, Ihaven't heard -- I haven't had any news from him so I am not sure what thesituation is with Mr. Black.
Well, I saw him about 45 minutes ago. We even shared a meal, here -- here, atthe court; sorry, at the Tribunal premises.
Registrar, could you send somebody to look for Mr. Black?
Yes, Court is adjourned for 10 minutes -- we will be back in 10 minutes. EitherMr. Black or Mister -- his co-counsel should be here. We will be back in 10minutes.
(Court recessed from 1310H to 1315H)
Mr. President, I am sorry to --
Well, Counsel, we have wasted 25 minutes because of you. You must be here ontime. Your co-counsel is not here, you are not here, the Accused is not here.
I have a medical certificate that I can give to you. I was told by a doctor notto be here at all. I'm not sure what the problem is, it may be malaria, but thetests haven't come back yet -- but they recommended I do not come here today atall. However, I realise I have no one to protect my client's interest if I'mnot here. So, what I am willing to do is to try and stay here as long as I can,so I don't shut things down because I have no co-counsel.
Well, . . . you do have a co-counsel.
Not at present, I don't; not in Arusha.
Co-counsel -- I don't know, co-counsel is appointed to be here.
Well, he's not here. And that is a fact, and I'm sick. And that's the reality.And I apologise for being late. But I had to -- I saw a doctor last night butthe technicians were not available, so I saw another one this morning. I had towait for that, so that's why I'm late and I apologise for being late anddelaying the proceedings. I really am not well. You can read the note. Thedoctor -- a nurse told me I should not be here at all. However, I don't want tostop the proceedings. So, what I will try to do is stay as long as I can. MaybeI can last a day. So as not to delay things but --
Court is in session now, appearances as before.
Yes, Mr. Segatwa, you can continue.
Is Counsel Black in a position to validly represent his client? If that's notthe case, then, that might be a problem. You might tell me, that I aminterfering with a matter that is none of my business, but in view of theproceedings and in order to observe the rights of the Defence we need to knowwhether he is in a position to participate validly in these proceedings andproperly represent his client.
I don't know, I am not exactly in my best form, Mr. Bâ. So, I don't feel well.I will try and do the best I can right now. I will try and do what I can, but Iam not at my best.
Yes, Mr. Segatwa.
Your Honours, before my colleague, Mr. Taku, addresses the Court, I would like,following the incident that took occurred yesterday, and advise counsel thatyou preferred to provide the following clarifications.
Mr. President, that's Kouambo, from Ottawa, Canada.
We have a slight technical problem. We are not getting the pictures or theimages from Arusha. We can hear you, but the images are not there.
Registrar, look into that. They cannot receive pictures.
Can I proceed, Mr. President, because what I am about to say is of no concernto the witness anyway?
Mr. President, I was saying that in my humble opinion in joint trials eachAccused is entitled to be represented as if it was a separate or individualtrial, and that is consistent with Rule 82 of the Rules of Procedure andEvidence. And if that is not possible, Your Honour, it will lie with the TrialChamber, again, in conformity with Rule 82(ii) (sic) of the Rules of Procedureand Evidence, to order a severance to avoid any conflict of interest that maycause serious prejudice to an Accused or to protect the interest of justice.
Mr. President, you will recall that my client had sought severance right fromthe beginning of this trial. That stated, I formally object that counsel for anaccused be directing my cross-examination which was prepared in advance anddiscussed beforehand with my client. And my only purpose of being here is todefend him. That stated Your Honour, let me reiterate the fact that at no pointin time have I intended to prejudice the interests of other co-accused. And iffor reasons beyond my own control that has been the case, I seek theunderstanding or crave the indulgence of the counsel and his client.
And, now, after following your wise counsel -- namely, that silence is goldenand words are made of silver, and after consulting with my team and client -- Ihave decided to be as brief as possible, and my cross-examination would beconcluded in less than an hour.
Let me thank you very much, Your Honour, for your kind attention.
Yes, Counsel, you must not take direction from other counsel. You must takedirections only from the Court. Don't allow others to dictate terms to you.Yes, thank you for taking advice from the Bench. You can continue now.
If the camera can --
May it please, Your Honours, I was advised by the registry that the technicalproblems that we had yesterday are resolved, and that it is advisable that weput the -- the cassette the very first thing this afternoon, because if we failto do that, other technical problems may arise. So, we did discuss with mylearned colleague, Mr. Segatwa, that will be making -- that that cassette willbe on. And we crave your indulgence, Your Honour, if it does not inconvenienceyou in any way, then we will likely view that cassette.
Yes. I was thinking of allowing you to have it after Mr. Segatwa's conclusion.
Yes, we can do it now.
But anyway -- anyway, if you think that it is advisable to do it now; we willfinish with you and then allow Mr. Segatwa to continue.
Yes, Mr. Roger, you are following the proceedings, here. Can you get ourpicture?
Yes, we got it now.
Yes, there is an application now, by Mr. Taku, to get back to his CD cassetteand to proceed with that and conclude his cross-examination. So we will -- Ihave granted that. Are you in a position to -- to play that first?
Yes, Mr. Black, what do you want to say?
Yes, I just want to explain the co-counsel situation because you might think Iam deliberately trying to arrange things so that I'm alone or something. Therehas been a problem trying to get him down here. He has now told me he iscoming, Monday, but there has been a difficulty with communication with thisco-counsel for some period of time. We've asked for him to come down severaltimes. But, now, he's telling me he's coming Monday. So, it is not that we havenot been trying to be diligent to get him here, but we haven’t been successful.It is -- and it is really difficult for me. I'm sorry.
Yes, Mr. Taku, you may put your -- give your directions to the registrar, as towhat -- how we should set this up.
Yes, Your Honours, as I had indicated yesterday, we had distributed what wewould call a free transcription, and at the end of this very short exercise, wepray that you order that formal transcription be done, for the purposes of ussupplying for the portion that we use of this CD cassette to be admitted intoevidence.
So, if they can put on the screen, Your Honours, the first 50 seconds, that is0 to 50 seconds of that CD cassette.
(Video cassette played)
Now, Your Honour, they can move to 13 minutes.
Now, first, Your Honour –
BY MR. TAKU:
Q. Now, General -- first, Your Honour -- General, can you situate your mind nowon that interview?
A. Having looked at the cassette here, yes, it happened not very long after myreturn to Canada.
Q. Thank you, General.
Now, may the technicians focus on the section from 13 minutes 00 seconds, to 15minutes 41 seconds.
(Video cassette played)
THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:
Your Honour, there is a slight problem with this, you know, because you know heis going quite fast and normally -- okay.
(Video cassette played)
May the technician, please, focus on the section from 17 minutes 00 seconds to20 minutes 00 seconds.
(Video cassette played)
Yes, technician, please, may you move to -- from 17 minutes 00, to 20 minutes00?
(Video cassette played)
Now, you can stop that, technician.
BY MR. TAKU:
Q. Now, General, you gave those candid, succinct, precise and pointed answersabout the events you lived, observed, participated in and carefully analysed atthe moment the events were still very fresh in your memory; correct?
A. At the time I was -- I had been relieved of my command due to injury. And,so, I was under the effects of that injury, but I was responding to thequestions at the time.
Q. General, well-- General Dallaire, we've listened carefully to the questionson that scene and your answers to them. With all the respects due to you,General Dallaire, I beg to ask the same questions, even as we sit in thiscourtroom, and I hope in all honesty your answers are the same; correct,General Dallaire?
A. Well, if you are asking me the questions, do so, sir, and I will so respond,yes.
Q. I said that -- I reiterate the same questions that you were asked in theinterview. I do not intend to waste any further time. We all listened to thequestions, we all listened to the answers, and my question is: Do you stand bythese answers?
A. I do not stand by the completeness of those answers, no.
Q. General Dallaire, I do not intend to get into a debate on the issues withyou. You gave those answers to the world at large. At the time you were notanticipating any proceedings. At the time you were free in your native Canada,and before the world media. And I take it, General Dallaire, that as forcecommander of the United Nations as someone who was aggrieved of what happenedin Rwanda, you were not deliberately misleading the world in the answers yougave to those questions; is that right?
A. I was not?
Q. Misleading the world by the answers you gave; is that correct?
A. I was not misleading. I was providing the information as I felt, with theinformation at the time, and, also, under the state of health that I had atthat point. I have never negated that one. There was initially as I describedto my superiors, a political decapitation, in fact, that was the term I used,and, ultimately, a destruction of a philosophy in regards to reconciliation inthe country, and, then, I did acquiesce in my reports to my superiors, that wewere -- after looking at the conventions provided to me by the InternationalRed Cross representative that we were facing a genocide. The scale of thegenocide is what I have, over the years, pondered extensively, as well as atthat time.
I could not imagine that we could go and try and plan in detail the slaughterof a million people. However, I never negated the fact that there was agenocide against one ethnicity; that there were exactations and killings donebehind the RPF line and I complained about that to Kagame, on a number ofoccasions; and, that, ultimately, the deployment of the killings was one thatwas nurtured over a period of time, meaning that it wasn't a spontaneousexplosion throughout the country, but at different phases the country fellunder this catastrophic failure and that is why I recommended rapidly that Ideploy up to 5,000 troops in order to stop that slaughter behind the lines thatwas continuing to be encouraged by both by the government and by the RTLM.
Q. General Dallaire, since, however, you said you gave that interview shortlyafter your state of health -- you recovered from your state of health. May Isuggest, General Dallaire, that with your state of health which is even moreprecarious -- so precarious with the malady that you could not even come toArusha to testify? May I suggest that if that were the case, then yourtestimony here had been under the influence of your state of health as filed byyour doctor before this Trial Chamber? Can we understand that to be the case?
A. I am an individual who is -- has had the injury called, post traumaticstress disorder. That injury did not all of a sudden start overnight. It is aninjury that, ultimately, called for me to ask to be withdrawn from my mission,and it is an injury that I will have for life. You have what you have in frontof you.
Your Honours, I'm sorry -- Your Honours, we do not need to press him on thisparticular point that (inaudible) on his health. You have the informationbefore you filed by his own doctors. You appreciate the answers he is giving tothis particular point.
Now, Your Honours, we would love to conclude our cross-examination at thispoint, but we pray respectfully, Your Honours, to tender the cassette -- especiallythe excerpts of the cassette, which we have, the cassette itself, and we did --
Do have you the cassette itself?
Yes. We will file it.
I think you have to give the translation of the --
You have to give a translation of the English and --
Your Honour, Roger Kouambo -- in Arusha.
What I am going to propose is that he provide a transcript, the full transcriptof the tape so that those portions are fitted into the proper context, not justportions that have been selected. At any rate, if he is just tendering thisone, we do not have any problem, and General Dallaire's interview is okay withme.
I think the more reliable approach -- or, the least subject to manipulation isto submit the full document, but if he just submits those portions we have noproblem with them.
Your Honours, we tender the entire CD for the simple purpose that Your Honourswill be able to look at the context in order to appreciate the reason ofillness which he purports today. If you look at the context, the full context,Your Honours will be able to appreciate. So, we tender the whole CD.
We, also, apply, Your Honour, that Your Honour will order that the competentservices should -- should make a transcription, an official transcription, ofthat cassette in the English and French, and provide it to the Court, and,also, that the cassette be admit into evidence.
(Inaudible) …Mr. Kouambo, you wanted to say something?
Yes, Your Honour. I wanted to ask, that we need to have the pictures again ofthe Court so that we can follow the pictures.
Yes. Registrar, please attend to that.
Your Honours, we also want to tender, Your Honour, the transcript of GeneralDallaire, his testimony in the Military I trial, dated the 19th of January2004, and the 22 (sic) January 2004, and the specific pages that were referredto under cross-examination, Your Honours.
How do you, what is the -- Mr. Abraham, what is the marking that can be givento the CD cassette?
D. 149, within brackets, Nzuwonemeye.
(Exhibit D. 149 [Nzuwonemeye] admitted)
And transcript of --
We have the relevant pages of the transcripts of the 19th of January 2004, inthe Military I trial -- page 28, the cover page on page 28; then the transcriptof the 22nd of January 2004, pages 46, 58, 72; and the transcripts of the 23rdJanuary 2003, the same applies, pages 3, 4, 5; the transcripts of the 26th ofJanuary 2004, pages 80 and 81.
Altogether, how many documents?
Okay, the registrar will assist.
Do have you any objection to this?
D. 150, within bracket, (Nzuwonemeye).
(Exhibit No. D. 150 [Nzuwonemeye] admitted)
Yes, we have --
Yes, Your Honour, we have the SITREP from Mr. Booh-Booh to Kofi Annan. Thecover places it at the 12th of April 1994. And the particular sites are K000 --K000702, covering the period from the 11th of April to the 12th of April, whichwould (unintelligible).
Yes. This document bears K number K000701. Is that the one?
Yes, Your Honours.
Thank you. The document has several pages, ending with K0000710. This is asituation report written by SRSG Booh-Booh, and recognised by the witness. Thisdocument is accepted as D. 151, within brackets, (Nzuwonemeye).
(Exhibit No. D. 151 [Nzuwonemeye] admitted)
Well, Counsel Taku, you need to specify the fact that it is the period from 11to 12th of April, but then the last page covers 9 to 11 April. Do we agree onthat?
Yes, that is the area that we want.
Just one minute.
I think we just admit the whole (unintelligible) as it is, because on the 12th,he forwarded those series of reports.
Yes, that is there, included on the 9th.
And finally, Your Honours, the excerpt of the book by General Dallaire, ShakeHands With the Devil, pages 238 and 239.
Yes. Pages --
It is in the English language, Your Honour.
Yes, pages 238 and 239 of the witness's book. It is tendered --
THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:
The President's microphone, please. We didn't hear what he said. We're sorry.
Pages of the book written by the witness, pages 238 and 239, is tendered intoevidence as D. 152, within brackets, (Nzuwonemeye), accepted.
(Exhibit No. D. 152 [Nzuwonemeye] admitted)
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, Your Honours, for your kind attention.
Yes, Mr. Segatwa, you may start.
Mr. Segatwa, what I told you yesterday was I was thinking of this way: Thatsimilar charges are -- almost similar charges are levelled against Mr.Nzuwonemeye's as your Accused. So since Mr. Nzuwonemeye's counsel took alimited number of hours to cover that area, I thought it was prudent for youalso to be within that period. That is why I made my comment. Not -- not(inaudible) cutting you short, but I thought that since the charges are similarin nature, that you will have only a limited area to cover. So since you haveconsidered all that, yes, you may continue now.
Thank you, Mr. President. In any case, I can assure this Court that I will notrepeat what was said by my distinguished colleague, Taku. All the more so as hecovered most of my client's interests. However, if I thought I should shortenmy cross-examination, it is for other reasons; reasons that you may well guess.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. Good morning, General Dallaire.
A. Good morning.
Q. Obviously, as I was saying yesterday, General Dallaire, I would have likedyou to be in the courtroom, because I see you as Armstrong on the moon, andhope that next time you will do us the honour of coming into this courtroom.
General Dallaire, did your mission require great neutrality for it to succeed?
A. It is one of the premises of a peacekeeping chapter 6 mission, yes.
Q. Thank you. General, you said that you met, on several occasions, authorities-- if I may so call them, authorities of the RPF. Is that true?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Can I take it that the RPF headquarters was based in Mulindi?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. General, is it true that on the 23rd of April, as well as the 24th of April1994, you were in Mulindi?
A. I'm at a loss to give you an exact response, but I was up there on a numberof occasions.
Q. General, do you remember if you testified in the Nkazabera case?
A. Was that a question?
Q. General, I wanted you to confirm whether, before the investigating judge,Silvania Verstreken, you gave testimony against Nkazabera. Nkazabera is speltas follows: N-K-A-Z-A-B-E-R-A.
A. If you're speaking of one of the defendants in military trial I, and if thatis one of the individuals, then yes.
Is he an Accused in Military I? No, he is under the impression that he is oneof the accused there.
Mr. Segatwa, where was this testimony given by him?
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General, this was against Nkazabera, one of the Interahamwe militiamen.Well, I don't know how to put it, he was one of the Interahamwe leaders.Nkazabera was one of the leaders of the Interahamwe.
That is -- that may be correct, Counsel; you must give him the details, wherethis inquiry was and in what circumstances he gave evidence.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General, it was not a trial, it was an interview that was conducted in thepremises of the ministry of defence in Ottawa in Canada. And this was relatedto the carrying out of a commission rogatory. That took place on the 19December -- 19 September 2006.
Are you sure of the date of the 19th?
No, 12th September 2006. That was when the commission rogatory was held.
Is it 12th September 2006? (Microphones overlapping)
12 September 2006. That is what is written here. 12 September 2006.
Mr. President, this was a document disclosed by Prosecution, and it was afterthe departure of Mr. Kouambo. But I believe that if the document is put on theoverhead projector --
Mr. Segatwa, the difficulty arises from the names, because I was the one whodisclosed this document to you last Friday, but you would note that -- well,the witness says he doesn't remember the names. So it is the name that iscausing the problem.
THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:
Can Prosecution speak into his microphone, please.
You talked of Ephrem Nkazabera, so I believe it is the name that is causing theproblem.
I nevertheless think that the general can remember that he was in the premisesof the ministry of defence in Ottawa, and that he gave evidence, or testimony,to an investigating judge of the Brussels area.
What Mr. Bâ is now saying is not true, Your Honour. I think he's mistaken,because in that document the (French spoken) refers to General Dallaire's book,and she refers to these three names that General Dallaire gave in his book. Andwhat General Dallaire says is that he cannot -- he cannot make any links,physical links -- well, I will read it in French. He says: "I cannot makeany physical link between the three persons and the names." (Microphonesoverlapping) ... he doesn't remember the names. It's not correct.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General, I just wanted to remind you that before the investigating judge,you said that you were at Mulindi on the night of the 23rd to the 24th ofApril. I suppose that must have been in the year 1994. (No interpretation)
A. Yes, I remember testifying, and I remember spending a night in Mulindi, andas you're refreshing my memory, be it the 23rd-24th, then so be it, yes.
Q. Thank you. In Mulindi, did you meet General Paul Kagame?
A. I believe the first time I met him after the start of the war was on the22nd. I went up to Mulindi. Normally if I went to Mulindi it was to meet withthe general, that would be quite logical that I would meet with him, as I metwith other members of their organisation.
Q. Thank you, General, for those clarifications. Did you have a working sessionwith General Paul Kagame -- who at the time was still a major, I believe.
A. Well, I -- to be quite honest, I don't remember when all of them started towear general rank, because they were colonels and majors and at one point allof a sudden everybody got promoted. But in that instance he was the commanderof the RPF forces, he was in the lead of the operations, and as such he was myprimary interlocutor throughout the civil war.
Q. General, do you have with you the book entitled I Shook Hands with the Devil-- the French version, do you have the French version of that book with you?
A. Yes, I have it available.
Q. Please, can you go to page 413?
Q. General, did you have a discussion, or a working session with General PaulKagame? This is what is reflected on page 413.
A. Yes, okay.
Q. On the first line you said: "We started discussing the situation of thebattle itself." Are you following that?
Q. General, I'm quoting from your book. You said: "We started discussingthe situation of the battle itself. I spread my military map between him andmyself on the ground." Are you following?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. Now, my question: The map that you spread out on the ground between yourselfand him, were these maps from staff headquarters? I mean, maps from yourheadquarters?
A. No, it was my personal -- what we call, in NATO parlance, my personal battlemap.
Q. Thank you for that clarification; that is what I wanted to know. General, Iwill continue reading. You said as follows -- I quote: "It was clear thatKagame had blocked, without any major effort, a number of battalions of theRwandan government forces who were defending Hutu heartland, namely, Ruhengeri.That enabled Kagame, once Byumba town was taken, as well as the main roadleading to the east, that enabled him, as I said, to go to the south right downto the border with Tanzania and to sort of end at the river. He also caused hisarmy to advance to the west just below Kigali on the main road leading to thecapital city." I -- I close the quote here.
Now comes my question: Did you discuss with Paul Kagame the war plan?
A. My map had absolutely no markings on it, as it is normal procedure for acommander not to have his map marked but to have it in his mind, in case itfalls into wrong hands as he moves about the battlefield. Secondly, what Idescribed there is what Kagame is -- I'm saying what I saw of him, and Iconducted exactly the same activities with General Bizimungu when I met withhim.
Q. General, in your book you continued and said the following -- I quote:"Once we completed our working session, he requested me to stay the nightin his house. We shook hands heartily and we extended good wishes to oneanother. Then I was escorted out of his office." End of quote.
Question: In your understanding, what could be -- what could Paul Kagame have-- what could he have wished most at that time?
A. I have absolutely no comprehension of your question. My remaining in -- inMulindi was a security measure because I did not want to travel at nightthrough the battle lines, and secondly my shaking of hands with him is a normalprocess that I've done with everybody else. And it wasn't in his home, it wasin a bungalow that was beside the headquarters staff and also residences ofstaff officers.
Q. Thank you for the clarifications, General.
I would like to point out that the original of the book is in English, so ifyou could also refer to the English passages that you are reading because thereare some passages in the French -- in the French version that are poorlytranslated. I would like to bring that to your attention.
Prosecution, I think it is up to General Dallaire to say that the translationwas not (sic) poorly done.
I just want to draw your attention to the fact that this book is originally inEnglish.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General, you said that it was normal, for security purposes, to stay inMulindi; I understand that. But what I do not understand is that you furthersaid as follows -- I quote: "The following day in Arusha the diplomats didwhat they could, but the dice were cast already." That is what you say,and it is true.
General, did you mean to say by that -- or, do you mean to say by that that RPFforces were getting ready to conquer Kigali while the RPF was getting ready tomeet in Arusha?
A. No, what I said in this is the fact that Kigali was already beingsurrounded, and the operations that I describe above were in fact the continuumof the offensive by the RPF in which Kigali was a main objective and that theoperation was in full swing. It is and was normal for me to discuss matters, atleast on the map, in order to acquire for myself a feel for what was happeningon the ground as the humanitarian situation required me to know where thebattle lines were in order to be able to assist the humanitarian effort andalso to get a better feel for the humanitarian situation, be it internallydisplaced refugees, pockets of people isolated, and the like.
Q. I understand very well, General, but once more, what I do not understand isthat you said -- and once more I'm quoting you: "In the course of ourdiscussions I asked Kagame why he did not directly grab his enemies by theirthroat."
Question: Perhaps grabbing one's enemies by their throat is a military term.Can you explain to us civilians what you meant by that?
A. Yes. In previous operations, the RPF had succeeded in coming close to Kigaliin a very short period of time; in fact, in a couple of weeks. We were alreadyin a couple of weeks plus of the civil war, there was operations going on inthe surroundings of the capital, that is to say the east and the south-east,and then moving west, with a slow envelopment of the capital. And so it seemedto me that there was a -- for him, operationally, if he wanted to succeed hisoperations in the swiftest amount of time possible, and wanting to save as manypeople as possible which was the reason why they said they started this war,and in order to stop the continuous exodus out of Kigali, that he would conducta significant operation directly related -- or, against the capital and thusmake the capital fall. And, in my estimation, that would then ultimately stopthe war.
Q. So, General, if I understood you correctly, you were in agreement with thatmilitary scenario; is that right?
A. Absolutely not. I had no agreement or disagreement. I was doing nothing morethan enquiring on his concept of operations, or at least what was going on forme to try and continue my work in order to bring about a ceasefire. For I can'tnegotiate a ceasefire if I don't know where they are and what they plan to doand what their future operations are.
Q. General, if I've understood your book clearly, you're the one who said:"In the course of our discussions I asked Kagame, why he did not jumpdirectly on the throats of his enemies? Why were you delaying the attack, orassault on Kigali?" You're the one saying so.
Q. Thank you, General. And you go on in your book and you say -- and I quote:
"I found my officers having a drink in a tiny canteen located within thecamp. Pasteur Bizimungu who, after RPF's victory would become the president ofthe Republic of Rwanda" -- close the parenthesis -- "was there withsome politicians, and I sat next to him close to the canteen while my men andthose of the RPF appeared to agree with each other and were spending some goodtime" -- or, "spent some time together, quite some time together assoldiers alone know how to do."
And there I end the quote.
My question, General: When you say that only soldiers are capable of doing so,you are referring to whom and to what group of people?
A. Comrades who are in uniform from various countries have, amongst the ethosof the military, a similar basis of their profession, and as such have a mutualrespect of their background capabilities. Such actions of communicating andcooperation were conducted on all sides, as was required in our mandate tomaintain the best possible communications with the ex-belligerents in order togain their trust and also acquire the information needed to do our job.
Q. So as far as you are concerned, General, these were no longer rebels, thesewere genuine soldiers who had come to an agreement with the members of yourforce. That's what I understood.
A. It had a long time previous to that, during the actual reconnaissance,although the RPF were called a rebel force they were, in my estimation, quite aprofessional, structured, disciplined, trained light military force that hadall the structures that one would expect of any professional or any nationalmilitary capability. So the term "rebel", in my estimation, was oneof a political nature and not one of a military one. It is also of note in thebook that on several occasions, when the militaries of both the RGF, thegendarmerie, and the RPF met in informal moments, they communicated and treatedeach other in the most fraternal of fashions, which often created for me acomplex situation of trying to understand how in one moment they can be suchaggressive belligerents, and yet at the other moment be so rather fraternal.
Q. Thank you, General. And while you were there, you dealt with some politicalmatters. I continue with your book -- and you say: "For one hour Pasteurand myself spoke about his past, the disaster or the catastrophe that we wereexperiencing, spoke about Booh-Booh, the special representative of thesecretary general of the United Nations, about the international community andthe future of Rwanda in the event RPF won the war."
General, could you say briefly what you said -- could you tell us briefly whatyou said about Booh-Booh, about the international community, and Rwanda'sfuture in the event RPF won the war?
A. Well, let me see. Twelve years later, attempting to go into a detailedconversation regarding something I've written four years ago, nearly five, atbest that I can recall the international community was a question of whether ornot the recognition of the situation in regards to what sort of politicalstructure would end up running the country. Also the fact that theinternational community had demonstrated such an adverse desire to get involvedin any significant way to try to stop the catastrophe. Mr. Booh-Booh, thesituation in which the RPF were very virulent in not wanting to negotiate anymore with him and what could be done about that, as he was my political leaderand the number one of the mission. And post the RPF, should it achieve its aim,because it was fighting to win -- I don't suspect anybody would start a war andnot want to win it -- was in more the arenas of reconciliation, for PasteurBizimungu was a Hutu and operating within a predominantly Tutsi organisation.
Q. Thank you, General. Were you in Rwanda in 2004?
A. I was there in April during the 10th anniversary memoriam (sic) of thegenocide.
Q. General, are you aware of what happened to Bizimungu, who had to becomepresident of the republic in the event the RPF were to win the war?
A. Would you mind rephrasing that? I'm not exactly sure what your question is.
Q. General --
Mr. Segatwa --
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. I want to find out what you would know, what happened to Bizimungu today,that is, the Bizimungu you met in Mulindi at that point in time.
A. Well, all I know is what -- in the newspapers, that he was president for awhile, that he was brought up on charges of fraud, I think, or something ofthat nature, and I think he was in jail. I'm not sure.
Q. When you visited Rwanda, you didn't seek to find out about his -- what hashappened to him?
A. I didn't seek to find out what happened to a lot of people, him or anyoneelse. And for that matter I went there as part of a personal pilgrimage ingoing to the different places where events had happened, to participate in thememoriam of the genocide, and to essentially then return home.
Q. General, let me put a question to you that would touch on your deepestconviction, or belief. Now, if you had known that Pasteur Bizimungu was jailed,or was in jail, would you have gone to visit him in prison to raise his pastwith him, and the future of Rwanda after RPF's victory?
A. Well, I was in Rwanda as a Canadian civilian. I had absolutely no authorityto immerse myself in the internal operations of the Rwandan government, orjudicial system. And I was saddened by the fact that he was no more president,but I was in no way going to move into any of the various post-Rwandasituations, or post-genocide situations, be it what happened to PasteurBizimungu, to Faustin Twagiramungu, to Seth, to a number of other people. Isimply was there as a civilian attending the ceremonies and attempting toreconcile with that terrible past.
Counsel, are these things really relevant to your defence?
Mr. President, can I just crave your indulgence? I will soon be concluding. In15 minutes I think I will have concluded. Can I seek your patience, then.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General, let's go back to your book on page 414, 4-1-4, towards the end ofthat page, towards the end of that page, 414. And you say at the end of the dayPasteur Bizimungu took you to the guest room and you were still at theheadquarters of Paul Kagame. And you say in a rather romantic manner -- and Iquote:
"The military bed had white sheets and a superb pillow case under amosquito net. And then I slept, felt slightly guilty, thinking about mysoldiers in (sic) Brent in Kigali, but I was really full of joy because of thescent of clean sheets, the warmth of the blanket, and the beautiful meal that Ihad ate, or had, and I slept that night in what appeared to me to be a briefmoment of paradise on earth." End of quote.
General, do you still have that feeling of paradise on earth in respect of thetime you spent in Mulindi?
A. By that time I had been sleeping on the floor of my office since the 7th ofApril, not having been able to get back to my bungalow. I had been sleepingwith a curtain from my office as a blanket. I had been living with so manyothers, the sound of war and bombardments, the smell of rotting bodies andburning bodies with diesel fuel, and there I was on the top of a hill in whatis called paradise on earth, Rwanda, amongst the trees and the fresh scent andfresh sheets. And, yes, for a simple soldier, that was paradise at that time.
Q. Thank you, General. The next question is one of finding out whether you'veever been that happy with the Rwandan government forces? That is, if you have spenta single night at the headquarters of the Rwandan government forces?
A. I didn't have to; I had my own headquarters. And the only night where Igained particular support from the Rwandan forces was the first night whenGeneral Ndindiliyimana provided me with his escort. There was no need for me todo that and, anyways, their headquarters was right in the middle of the war.
Q. General, let me take up your book again on page 3-0-6, 306 of the Frenchversion, and 309 of the same book. It was the day after the attack on the planeof the president, Juvénal Habyarimana. Page 66 were being -- last --
You said 66?
THE ENGLISH INTERPRETER:
306, he meant.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. Last bit, one paragraph. Middle or towards the end of that paragraph.
"I still had a mandate since RPF continued to comply with the terms of theagreements. Only the delinquent units of the Rwandan government forces wereviolating the said accords, or agreements."
That description that you provide with respect to the Rwandan governmentforces, would that description not be unfair when compared to your treatment oryour reference or description of the RPF?
A. I absolutely do not see any link between either one. The RPF at that timehad not gone beyond the confines of the CND, nor did I have any informationthat they had crossed into the DMZ. And so they were still meeting the peaceagreement requirements, and it was the units inside of Kigali that, as far as Icould determine, were the only ones transgressing.
I must intervene. I'm sorry, Mr. President, I know I'm -- I don't feel well,but I don't think I'm so ill that I'm hallucinating, but I have the impressionI am, and that I'm sitting on the Prosecution side of the courtroom. Becauseagain this entire line of questioning has been to support General Dallaire andhis professed neutrality against all the evidence, and to portray hisexperience with the RPF as paradise on earth but the RGF is something verydifferent. I cannot understand how counsel for the Defence can ask questionswhich have the objective of assisting General Dallaire in portraying hisversion of events, in assisting the Prosecution, and in trying to disarm thepotential cross-examination of myself and Mr. MacDonald.
I am extremely concerned by this continued strategy by my learned friend to myleft. And object to it -- I object to it, it's prejudicial to my client and hisdefence, and I said yesterday that this demonstrated a strategy -- at least,the effect of it was to assist not only General Dallaire but also theProsecution -- may compound me to ask for a severance of my case from thistrial, which I know will be very difficult. And you will probably deny such amotion at this stage because of your completion strategy. So what am I to do?What is General Ndindiliyimana to do, General Bizimungu to do when faced withDefence counsel who engage in a strategy which does not assist them but in factassists the other side? I don't know what to do at this point.
But I have to say --
-- that this is, I believe, unethical under the terms of -- terms of ethics ofthe statute and the rules of procedure we are required to follow. Because it'snot helping his client. In fact, it's damaging his own client, and it'scertainly damaging me and General -- and my client, General Bizimungu. And Idon't know why I have to put up with this, because it's not fair.
We can continue to play the game that we're all here doing our job and doingthe right thing for each person's client, but that's not the reality. I'm goingto call a spade a spade. This is not what's happening here. I don't know whyMr. Segatwa and Mr. Seydou Doumbia engage in these lines of questions, but theeffect is very damaging for the other -- for the rest of us, and I don't knowwhy we should put up with it --
-- and there has to be a solution. I don't know what it is, Mr. President. ButI'm going to have to consult my client and determine what to do, because Ican't continue two more years with this sort of manoeuvre going on behind thescenes. And I -- I refuse to play the game that this is all sort of kosher andit's just the way he's doing things. Because that's not the way it's happeningand everybody knows it who's paying attention here.
Mr. President, the problem with my learned colleague, Counsel Black, is thathe's not patient; he's not willing to wait for me to conclude. If he's patient,if he waits just for five minutes, he's going to find out if I agree or I'marguing the Prosecution's case. We need to be patient, and no one can dictatethe conduct or the strategy of someone else. Let him be patient. Byinterrupting the cross-examination, my cross-examination, he's cut off -- myline of thinking is interrupted.
Be that as it may, he will have his own time, he will rectify matters in theevent I have committed any mistakes. I would want to continue. I don't have anymore than ten minutes, Mr. President.
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General Dallaire, when --
I'm sorry, Mr. Segatwa, and I'm sorry, Mr. President. But my role here is todefend my client. I can't defend my client when my client's being attacked bycounsel for the Defence on the same side of the -- on the same bench here. AndI don't intend to play that game. You know, in boxing there's a term for this,it's called taking a dive, looking like you're defending -- fighting the otheropponent, but not really. And I don't want to accuse him of taking a divebecause I don't know why they're doing this. But the effect is -- that's theeffect, and already the damage to my client's interests is pretty serious --
-- 'cause you're only going to give me one day --
Sorry. You're only going to give me one day -- Mr. President, you're only goingto give me one day -- one full day to cross-examine General Dallaire. Becauseof that I was going to engage in a certain line of questions which would maybetake one day, because I didn't think General Dallaire was going to say a lot ofthese things. But now counsel for the Defence here has drawn out all sorts ofthings which assist the Prosecutor and try and back up the alleged neutralityof General Dallaire, and I don't have the time -- you won't give me the time tocounterattack and to try and neutralise this.
And I want that on the record, that something's happening here, I don't knowwhat it is and who's arranging it, but the effect is very damaging to myclient's interests, and very prejudicial to my client's interests, and again Idon't see how we can continue with a combined trial like this, a joint triallike this.
Counsel, I think you also must realise that the other counsel also have theirown client, so they must, as the senior attorney, think that what they aredoing is for the benefit of their client, so we can't -- I can't tell him,don't do this, don't do that. I cannot. If necessary, which I did yesterday, Ican just say, "These are the charges against your client, so please try toconfine your questioning within that." So other than that, I think as acounsel, he's entitled to put questions to the witness that the witness hasreferred to in the course of the examination.
Well, I agree he has the right to defend his client's interest. That is notwhat is happening here. Mr. Taku did an excellent job of that yesterday,defending both Captain Sagahutu and Major Nzumonemeye. In fact, he gave themalmost a complete defence, in my view, to the charges against them. But theselines of questions don't help his client and they are only meant to damage theinterests of General Bizimungu and General Ndindiliyimana. I mean, is easierfor me with General Ndindiliyimana because of what General Dallaire said aboutmy man before and his relationship with him.
Well, Counsel --
(Microphones overlapping) … and the army in general, it is very damaging whathe is doing -- and I know you can't direct him to do anything, but I just wantto put it on the record that something is going on here which is very strange.
Well, Counsel -- yes, Mr. Segatwa? You are going to take a few minutes, atleast finish it, and then we can give you the floor.
Mr. President, if he had not interrupted me, I would have concluded. I -- thereneeds to be an iota of patience. Can I proceed, Mr. President?
BY MR. SEGATWA:
Q. General Dallaire, can you hear me?
Q. When you went into the ESM hall where you found officers at a meeting, wereyou properly welcomed?
Q. Why then, General, do you say in your book on page 309, I quote:
"Nevertheless, the assembly or gathering was not quite sympathetic"?
A. Well, it quite simply is that Colonel Bagosora did turn and did come forwardand shake my hand and so on, but there was in the assembly a -- a reaction ofnot of welcome outright but of stirrings that to me was not necessarilyreflective of a positive atmosphere. Although Colonel Bagosora was very politeand forthright, I was interrupting him in what he was doing, and then I wasshown to my seat, and the proceedings carried on. So, I mean, that was myimpression.
Q. General, you talked about Mr. Booh-Booh. I'm not saying that you talkedabout him during this session. Now, do you know Mr. Booh-Booh?
A. No. I know him only through the professional encounters we had and a numberof conversations that we had about his -- on one occasion he described to mehis extensive industry, banana industry, I gather, in Cameroon, and how he wasaway from it and that was a concern for him; that he was an ambassador to theUnited Nations; that he knew the secretary general, Boutros-Ghali, when he wasalso foreign minister for Egypt. I don't remember the details of his family,but there was informal conversation on a couple of occasions, at best.
Q. Am I mistaken if I say that he was the head of mission?
A. When he arrived in mission area, I relinquished my responsibilities of headof mission and did not resume them until he left the mission area, and I forgetexactly the dates. It was there in May sometime.
Q. But while he was head of mission, he was, nevertheless, your boss; is thatright?
A. Undeniably. Absolutely.
Q. General, did you read Booh-Booh's -- I'm sorry, I think I'm mixing upthings. Did you read Booh-Booh's book, the book entitled, Dallaire's BossSpeaks? That is a free translation of the title.
A. No. I've seen excerpts of it, but I have not read the full book.
Q. Amongst the excerpts, were you able to read the heading of chapter 10 inwhich he says, I quote: "Dallaire is in support of peace" or, rather,"against peace"?
A. I don't recall reading any of that.
Q. General, I will request you to read that book. But the attitude that you hadin relation to the RPF which was taking you to paradise and the attitude whichyou had regarding the government forces, in your opinion, wasn't that attitudebiased?
Q. Why do you say no, given that you described some of them as true soldiersand the others as not being true soldiers? And when Dallaire says -- or whenBooh-Booh says that you joined or you allied with the RPF in order to fightagainst peace -- that is what Booh-Booh says -- Booh-Booh says that you alliedwith the RPF against peace, how do you explain that?
A. Booh-Booh can say whatever he wants to say. That is his prerogative as afree citizen of his country. We have not discussed in detail the operationalcapabilities of the government forces, and as such you can't say that I treatedone as a professional army and the other one as something else. If we want todiscuss the professional capabilities of the government forces, we can do so,and then conclude with that.
Q. General, in your testimony in the Akayesu case, you yourself said that theinterim government attacked you as being an RPF ally and you gave as an examplethat whenever UNAMIR arrived somewhere the RPF also arrived there two, three orfive days later on. What do you say to that?
A. Well, sir, if you have read the complete book, you will see that I describethat because I'm running after the government and its leadership, they arecontinuously moving and withdrawing, and so I go to meet them, and the nexttime when I want to meet them, they are no more there because they havewithdrawn due to the advance of the RPF and at that point their obviousinability to stop that advance. And so it is an easy extrapolation to say thatI was, in fact -- I think, if I recall well, the reconnaissance element of theRPF, well, when you are on the losing side of a battle, you will grasp at anystraw in order to excuse the operational ineffectiveness of that time. And so thatis my pure analysis of that point.
Q. General, I wanted to conclude by asking you one more question, a questionthat always comes to my mind. You are surrounded by many people, many peoplefrom the international community and also people from your country. Is thatbecause of your status as a retired general or your status as a senator, or isit due to the fact that you have -- you successfully carried out your missionin Rwanda?
A. The support I'm getting is a support that I expect any officer of the Canadianforces, serving or retired, would receive in front of any internationaltribunal, and, as such, that is the norm that this country has established.
Q. General, I will nevertheless end this examination by bringing to mind aletter by Kouchner who said that with the capabilities that you had you wouldhave been able to stop the massacres in a few days. What do you say to that?
A. Well, I say to that when Mr. Kouchner becomes a general he can give me hismilitary assessment, and until then it is worth what it is worth. And in thesame vein, I'm certainly not going to assess his capabilities as the founder ofMédicins sans frontières or any of his political duties.
General, I have no further questions for you. I thank you.
Thank you. We will take a break now, half an hour, and then come back at 3:45.The Court is adjourned for a half an hour.
General, you can have a cup of tea and then come back.
(Court recessed from 1515H to 1550H)
Just one thing, Mr. President. I forgot to do a courtesy which I feel badabout. I do have a new legal assistant as of yesterday afternoon, LeopoldNsengiyumva has joined us. He was in the room before. I just wanted tointroduce him to you. I'm sorry to him that I didn't do it before.
Yes, Mr. MacDonald, you may start now.
Yes, Your Honour. As you know, I had requested earlier on authorisation to golast and I explained why.
Yes. But since Mr. Black is not --
Exactly, so I'm not going to make an issue out of this, but in order for me toassess my outline of questions I have for General Dallaire, I would need toknow, Your Honour, if you would allow me to cross-examine perhaps on the 5thwhen we come back, give me time to regroup and allow me time forcross-examination. Because you had allowed, I believe, two half days, and Iwould be short perhaps of an hour or two, so --
Yes, we will get tomorrow a full day, today, and Tuesday, the 5th, a full day.